[Radiance-general] Leveraging the Python language in Building Performance Simulation

Fri Dec 7 05:34:30 PST 2012

Hi Radiance list,

I posted also to TRNSYS, BLDG-SIM, E+, ESPR, but so far Radiance listers
are in the lead for discussion!

We believe that Python is the best language for "the community". Therefore,
we are trying to take the first steps in introducing Python to the
community.

I am digesting a lot of feedback and can see some next steps.

First: There are several Large projects out there which are very exciting,
and I will try to summarize them on our website, and maybe we can assist
with some of them in the future. So I can see that one aspect of this
initiative will be simply a website which lists these potential ideas and
more developed projects and promotes contributions to them, alongside some
"getting started" examples, and how-to-install-python guides.

So far from Radiance;
http://code.google.com/p/pyrat/
https://sites.google.com/site/tbleicher/radiance/python-radiance
www.bozzograo.net/radiance/index.php?module=Downloads&func=view&cid=2&start=0

Second: We will work on getting some simple example python "scripts" using
Radiance, maybe something from the above sites, just 100 lines, well
commented, as getting started examples. (Anyone want to help? I can give
you authorship access to the site!)

Third: I believe that Python scripting can benefit any of the users of the
aforementioned lists, a cross community initiative, this is a big
advantage. However, I can see, after re-subscribing to 6 lists and sifting
through messages, that the community is rather fragmented. So I will need
to think about how to build a better network.

Ok, that's my thinking-out-loud for now. I'm now also subscribed to the
dev- list if this discussion is moved.

Thanks!

-Marcus

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Guglielmetti, Robert <
Robert.Guglielmetti at nrel.gov> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> One thing I should point out is that OpenStudio has a companion piece,
> called the building component library (BCL), which is currently under
> development. This is a database of "building model components" --
> everything from a weather file, to discrete code for describing a piece of
> mechanical equipment, what-have-you. Another element we will have in the
> BCL is "measures", which are parametric snippets of code that can step
> through a model and modify or perturb different elements of the model,
> consistently. This speaks to your desire for a consistent database and
> interface to the various tools, and will also help folks like yourself get
> up and running with scripting a little bit better.
>
> This issue is no different from the zillions of AutoLISP routines out
> there for AutoCAD users -- no portal exists to all of these little
> programs (some of which got subsumed by AutoCAD itself).
>
> I absolutely agree with your first paragraph. We believe the Chicago
> politics adage "vote early, and vote often" can be applied in our field:
> "model early and often". Too many energy models are created simply to
> document the energy savings for a LEED submittal. OpenStudio is all about
> lightweight models, run rigorously.
>
> Anyway that's my buck and a half on the topic. We should also probably
> move this thread to the dev list, should it continue (which I hope it
> does)...
>
>
> Rob Guglielmetti
> National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
> Commercial Buildings Research Group
> 15013 Denver West Parkway MS:RSF202
> Golden, CO 80401
> 303.275.4319
> robert.guglielmetti at nrel.gov
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/4/12 11:31 AM, "Michael Donn" <Michael.Donn at vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> >Hi Rob/Thomas
> >
> >I have to express some ambivalence on this topic. Having reCently
> >published a paper expressing my views on the quick 'performance sketch'
> >approach to models, I confess to being a fan of small quick repetitive
> >analysis tasks using fully capable software. Rather than using behemoth
> >BIM models, lightweight models and sophisticated modelling software is
> >The way to mainstream simulation.
> >
> >That said, in trying to mainstream daylight and energy analysis and
> >acoustic analysis with a class of 200 architecture, building science and
> >interiors students, I am struggling to get them to think about modelling
> >as an abstraction exercise. There is something inherently satisfying
> >about the apparent reality of the behemoth BIM with its door handles
> >modelled, which students are reluctant to turn away from. They want their
> >models to look real in their 3D form, not to be a simple representation
> >of the lighting (or thermal, or acoustic) principles at work in their
> >design.
> >
> >it is hard enough to focus students on this form of abstraction. If I was
> >also to ask them to work with a series of tools in an analysis  toolbox
> >then the push back would be immense. My student engagement with the
> >results of analysis has improved out of sight as we have moved from a
> >command line or script interface towards a 3D model with associated
> >calculation capabilities. If I look at the OpenStudio approach, then I am
> >ecstatic that the people learning simulation now engage early with
> >modelling the influence of their design ideas on performance, and are no
> >longer struggling with text interfaces. They come back to those text
> >interfaces with a clear idea of what more they want to do. But then they
> >find the same problem that even experienced users of scripts / text
> >interfaces find - that there are so many scripts / tools that knowing
> >which one to use or finding whether is a mind boggling task. This applies
> >even when you know the script / capability exists in the toolbox. I and
> >some grad students face exactly this issue with OpenStudio - we know and
> >useEnergyPlus/GenOpt, we want to compare it to openStudio/Dakota as
> >weaving Radiance into the optimisation would be such an improvement. We
> >know and can see examples of Ruby scripts for Dakota. But getting it
> >running is something we do not have the time for..
> >
> >Another architectural world is facing similar issues: scripting of
> >parametric relationships in geometry within the Rhino modeller. There is
> >some empirical research that suggests people are more effective modellers
> >when they have the Grasshopper graphical interface to the scripts
> >available. Grasshopper provides an interface to the Rhino script which
> >represent snippets of script code as boxes which are graphically 'wired'
> >together. However, even experienced users of Grasshopper+Rhino find it
> >difficult to find the box/snippet of code that does the job they are
> >thinking about. Many versions of the same geometrical operation are
> >produced because the catalogue of box/snippets does not exist or
> >describes them in unfamiliar ways.
> >
> >I am very keen to support this Python toolbox idea, but caution it is
> >only as good as the database/interface to the tools. Clearly, the Ecotect
> >approach is something to be learned from. It was constructed as a
> >consistent interface to a bunch of analytical tools. It is best used in a
> >mode where the interface is used to create different models for different
> >analytical purposes, and the advantage is consistency of modelling
> >environment. Unfortunately, this consistent modelling interface tempts
> >the user to the notion it would be more efficient to have one model...
> >With respect to the Python toolbox, it seems to me the Python part is the
> >simple part. What we all need to think about when creating these
> >suggested Python suitable tasks is
> >a) a set of tags/ key words that would make the code accessible in a
> >world where many hundreds of tools are in the tool box;
> >b) a set of modelling guidelines that are associated with each script
> >that enable the user to group tools by abstraction level /type and hence
> >plan how many models might be required;
> >
> >With this assistance from us, Marcus, Clayton and Allen have a chance of
> >building a set of tools that we all embrace. I am thinking, I'd like this
> >kind of exercise to provide not just a few Python tools I can dream up,
> >but make accessible a whole bunch of others' ideas as well.
> >
> >M
> >
> >Michael Donn
> >+642161280
> >Michael.Donn at gmail.com
> >
> >Sent from my iPad
> >
> >On 5/12/2012, at 0:39, "radiance-general-request at radiance-online.org"
> ><radiance-general-request at radiance-online.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Send Radiance-general mailing list submissions to
> >>    radiance-general at radiance-online.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>    http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>    radiance-general-request at radiance-online.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>    radiance-general-owner at radiance-online.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Radiance-general digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>   1. Re: Leveraging the Python language in Building Performance
> >>      Simulation (Guglielmetti, Robert)
> >>   2. Persistent problems on dctimestep and Install
> >>      (Germ?n Molina Larrain)
> >>   3. Re: Persistent problems on dctimestep and Install (Greg Ward)
> >>   4. Re: Persistent problems on dctimestep and Install
> >>      (Germ?n Molina Larrain)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 19:44:39 -0700
> >> From: "Guglielmetti, Robert" <Robert.Guglielmetti at nrel.gov>
> >> To: Radiance general discussion <radiance-general at radiance-online.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] Leveraging the Python language in
> >>    Building Performance Simulation
> >> Message-ID:
> >>    <FFF56A6D37A3A54F91A03601AC22DA3225FDC07EDE at MAILBOX2.nrel.gov>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> Hey Thomas,
> >>
> >> I totally agree, and that's why I have tried very hard to maintain such
> >>an interface to the OpenStudio/Radiance stuff. While Application/GUI
> >>integration is a priority, all of the Radiance stuff starts out as a
> >>Ruby script prototype, and I build in command line switches to all of
> >>the functionality. As someone who learned Radiance from the command
> >>line, I totally respect the UNIX toolbox model, and feel like our tools
> >>need to play nice in that arena. If anything, I've learned that most of
> >>my stuff is to large and monolithic, and I'd like to break down or
> >>refactor a lot of what I've written to be more modular like Radiance.
> >>But as it is, everything we've implemented in Ruby has full command line
> >>functionality (and help), and I expect we'll keep that interface an
> >>option for the foreseeable future.
> >>
> >>
> >> Rob Guglielmetti
> >> National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
> >> Commercial Buildings Research Group
> >> 15013 Denver West Parkway MS:RSF202
> >> Golden, CO 80401
> >> 303.275.4319
> >> robert.guglielmetti at nrel.gov
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Thomas Bleicher [tbleicher at googlemail.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 7:04 PM
> >> To: Radiance general discussion
> >> Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] Leveraging the Python language in
> >>Building Performance Simulation
> >>
> >> Hi Rob
> >>
> >> Based on my experience with Radiance scripting in
> >>Python|Ruby|Bash|Lua|whatever I'd say that it really doesn't matter much
> >>which language you use as long as your application has a good command
> >>line interface:
> >>
> >> 1) small single-purpose apps are better than one big app to rule them
> >>all
> >> 2) process options should be exposed via command line arguments
> >> 3) good error reporting and some form of progress reporting for long
> >>running processes
> >>
> >> I think the scripting community would be better served if you implement
> >>a good command line interface to your binaries and Ruby scripts than by
> >>just another language wrapper.
> >>
> >> My 2 CI cent,
> >>
> >> Thomas
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Guglielmetti, Robert
> >><Robert.Guglielmetti at nrel.gov<mailto:Robert.Guglielmetti at nrel.gov>>
> >>wrote:
> >> Hi guys,
> >>
> >> Not sure if you (Marcus and Alan) remember me, but I tagged along on a
> >>lunch together when you visited NREL a while back. This sounds like a
> >>great and ambitious project. Of course, it's tied to a specific
> >>scripting language -- in this case, Python. I used to use Python a bit
> >>for just this type of Radiance automation, myself. The SPOT program
> >>(Radiance-based lighting photosensor placement and optimization tool) is
> >>a mix of Python and VBA. OpenStudio is primarily C++, but we export all
> >>of that C++ functionality to Ruby (and C#) in the form of SWIG
> >>"bindings". Much of the Radiance functionality in OpenStudio is actually
> >>a bunch of Ruby scripts. There are even elements of Radiance that are
> >>written in Perl.
> >>
> >> The point being that everyone has their favorite high level language.
> >>Our hand was forced to Ruby, simply because the OpenStudio project
> >>leverages SketchUp quite a bit, and the SketchUp API is in Ruby. It'd be
> >>great if we could leverage your (and your contributors') work in
> >>OpenStudio too, though. We should talk about how we might make that
> >>happen. I know SWIG supports Python, but the maintenance headache of
> >>supporting even just Ruby and C# is major; I doubt the team is
> >>interested in supporting yet another scripting language. However I do
> >>see an opportunity here, as we are rolling out the notion of "measures"
> >>in OpenStudio, which are pre-packaged energy efficiency measures (e.g.
> >>modify my model to have a WWR of .10 to .90 in .10 increments, simulate
> >>and compile the results, while I go have lunch). We should work together
> >>to see how we can best integrate your script library with OpenStudio and
> >>other tools.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> - Rob
> >>
> >> Rob Guglielmetti
> >> National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
> >> Commercial Buildings Research Group
> >> 15013 Denver West Parkway MS:RSF202
> >> Golden, CO 80401
> >> 303.275.4319<tel:303.275.4319>
> >> robert.guglielmetti at nrel.gov<mailto:robert.guglielmetti at nrel.gov>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: info info
> >>[info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com<mailto:info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com>]
> >> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 4:57 AM
> >> To:
> >>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>;
> >>trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu<mailto:trnsys-users at cae.wisc.edu>;
> >>EnergyPlus_Support at yahoogroups.com<mailto:EnergyPlus_Support at yahoogroups
> .
> >>com>;
> >>radiance-general at radiance-online.org<mailto:
> radiance-general at radiance-onl
> >>ine.org>
> >> Subject: [Radiance-general] Leveraging the Python language in Building
> >>Performance Simulation
> >>
> >> Dear simulation community,
> >>
> >> The Python programming language is well known as a powerful tool in
> >>automation, scripting, and high performance scientific computing. In our
> >>experience, countless hours have been saved in automating building
> >>simulation tasks, allowing us to focus more on creating quality building
> >>models and accurate performance results.
> >>
> >> We believe that Python is positioned to make a big difference in the
> >>building simulation community. To get started, we have the following
> >>offer: Send us your scripting problems, and we will solve them for you!
> >>
> >> In this phase, we are interested most in small well defined tasks.
> >>Example problems would be;
> >>
> >> "In my research, I need to parametrize 100 EnergyPlus files with
> >>different U-Values"
> >> "We need to convert 1000 files from format *.yyy to format *.qqq"
> >> "Our company produces a report for each project, we use Excel to
> >>calculate the average Lux levels from radiance, it's easy but boring
> >>after 100 projects"
> >> Or anything else where you think - "I wish I had an intern do this for
> >>me..." (Maybe you are this intern...)
> >>
> >> Help us by defining your problem with steps taken and the desired
> >>result. Send them to:
> >>
> >>projects at pythonpoweredbuilding.com<mailto:projects at pythonpoweredbuilding
> .
> >>com><mailto:projects at pythonpoweredbuilding.com<mailto:
> projects at pythonpowe
> >>redbuilding.com>>
> >>
> >> For all problems received, we will recommend ideas, methods, and
> >>modules. We will furthermore select 3 projects to solve and feature in
> >>our Workshop during the Building Simulation 2013 conference in France
> >>next August http://www.bs2013.fr/. We will also feature these problems
> >>on our website; http://www.pythonpoweredbuilding.com.
> >>
> >> Problems must therefore be free of any intellectual property and will
> >>be open to all. For more information and more about us, please visit
> >>http://www.pythonpoweredbuilding.com. If you are already a convert and
> >>want to get involved, contact us at
> >>info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com<mailto:info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com
> >.<ma
> >>ilto:info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com<mailto:
> info at pythonpoweredbuilding.com
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Please excuse cross posting, we will direct further updates primarily
> >>to BLDG-SIM.
> >>
> >> Happy simulating,
> >>
> >> Marcus Jones, Clayton Miller, and Alan Jackson - Python evangelists
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Radiance-general mailing list
> >>
> >>Radiance-general at radiance-online.org<mailto:
> Radiance-general at radiance-onl
> >>ine.org>
> >> http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 00:10:55 -0300
> >> From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> >> To: Radiance general discussion <radiance-general at radiance-online.org>
> >> Subject: [Radiance-general] Persistent problems on dctimestep and
> >>    Install
> >> Message-ID:
> >>    <CAF-iH4JcUFiRJuj5t0whQubeFQJho+-Hzo5eM9E5PeG2yDLiig at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> It's me again, with new troubles... sorry for that.
> >>
> >> I have been trying to implement the Three Phase Method on two different
> >>PCs
> >> and two different OS, and not good news so far. Long story short, the
> >>NREL
> >> precompiled Radiance for Windows returned only zeroes when dctimestep
> >>was
> >> called (Andy McNeil helped me to discard syntax errors ... THANKS FOR
> >> THAT); Ubuntu used to give me no answer, then it took turns between
> >> "reinhart.cal not found" and some other similar things, and now it keep
> >> throwing "segmentation fault" (my sky vector is not full of zeroes). I
> >> already tried reinstalling my Linux distribution, compiling the Head
> >> version (I think I did it ok), searching on the web, preinstalling x11
> >>dev
> >> library, and installing Learnix... but "segmentation fault" keeps
> >>there, in
> >> the two PCs.
> >>
> >> anyway, until now, all my compilations "have had some errors" and
> >> dctimestep has worked some times, but I haven't been able to understand
> >>why
> >> sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... I am pretty stucked
> >>here. If
> >> there is any trick for installing RADIANCE or getting the permissions to
> >> avoid "segmentation fault", any advice would help a lot.
> >>
> >> THANKS
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL:
> >><
> http://www.radiance-online.org/pipermail/radiance-general/attachments/20
> >>121204/e5169690/attachment-0001.html>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 21:29:09 -1000
> >> From: Greg Ward <gregoryjward at gmail.com>
> >> To: Radiance general discussion <radiance-general at radiance-online.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] Persistent problems on dctimestep and
> >>    Install
> >> Message-ID: <F4F71603-4256-4921-8168-F5C91D8BA38D at lmi.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>
> >> Hi Gem?n,
> >>
> >> You need to provide some information or no one can help you.  What were
> >>the exact commands you used when you got your errors?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -Greg
> >>
> >>> From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> >>> Date: December 3, 2012 5:10:55 PM HST
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> It's me again, with new troubles... sorry for that.
> >>>
> >>> I have been trying to implement the Three Phase Method on two
> >>>different PCs and two different OS, and not good news so far. Long
> >>>story short, the NREL precompiled Radiance for Windows returned only
> >>>zeroes when dctimestep was called (Andy McNeil helped me to discard
> >>>syntax errors ... THANKS FOR THAT); Ubuntu used to give me no answer,
> >>>then it took turns between "reinhart.cal not found" and some other
> >>>similar things, and now it keep throwing "segmentation fault" (my sky
> >>>vector is not full of zeroes). I already tried reinstalling my Linux
> >>>distribution, compiling the Head version (I think I did it ok),
> >>>searching on the web, preinstalling x11 dev library, and installing
> >>>Learnix... but "segmentation fault" keeps there, in the two PCs.
> >>>
> >>> anyway, until now, all my compilations "have had some errors" and
> >>>dctimestep has worked some times, but I haven't been able to understand
> >>>why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... I am pretty stucked
> >>>here. If there is any trick for installing RADIANCE or getting the
> >>>permissions to avoid "segmentation fault", any advice would help a lot.
> >>>
> >>> THANKS
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:36:25 -0400
> >> From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> >> To: Radiance general discussion <radiance-general at radiance-online.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] Persistent problems on dctimestep and
> >>    Install
> >> Message-ID:
> >>    <CAF-iH4LhLk6Upgw-+UdTyS0MNe_gc=uY=u9iBSJy0cAyAQVypg at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Hi Greg,
> >>
> >> For installing I did "sudo ./makeall install" and "sudo ./makeall
> >>library".
> >> For the dctimestep use I did:
> >>
> >> *dctimestep Matrices/V.vmx
> >> Matrices/Tforward.xml Matrices/D.dmx Matrices/S.skv >
> >>results/3phase.txt*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> I, of course, had a directory called Matrices where all my files were
> >> stored. The *Tforward.xml* was generating using genBSDF on a simple
> >>clear
> >> window, and the Daylight and View matrix were computed folowing the Andy
> >> McNeil tutorial.
> >>
> >> I tend to think it is a problem in the configuration of Ubuntu? I mean,
> >>the
> >> permissions or something. But I do not know how to fix it.
> >>
> >> 2012/12/4 Greg Ward <gregoryjward at gmail.com>
> >>
> >>> Hi Gem?n,
> >>>
> >>> You need to provide some information or no one can help you.  What were
> >>> the exact commands you used when you got your errors?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> -Greg
> >>>
> >>>> From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> >>>> Date: December 3, 2012 5:10:55 PM HST
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> It's me again, with new troubles... sorry for that.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have been trying to implement the Three Phase Method on two
> >>>>different
> >>> PCs and two different OS, and not good news so far. Long story short,
> >>>the
> >>> NREL precompiled Radiance for Windows returned only zeroes when
> >>>dctimestep
> >>> was called (Andy McNeil helped me to discard syntax errors ... THANKS
> >>>FOR
> >>> THAT); Ubuntu used to give me no answer, then it took turns between
> >>> "reinhart.cal not found" and some other similar things, and now it keep
> >>> throwing "segmentation fault" (my sky vector is not full of zeroes). I
> >>> already tried reinstalling my Linux distribution, compiling the Head
> >>> version (I think I did it ok), searching on the web, preinstalling x11
> >>>dev
> >>> library, and installing Learnix... but "segmentation fault" keeps
> >>>there, in
> >>> the two PCs.
> >>>>
> >>>> anyway, until now, all my compilations "have had some errors" and
> >>> dctimestep has worked some times, but I haven't been able to
> >>>understand why
> >>> sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... I am pretty stucked
> >>>here. If
> >>> there is any trick for installing RADIANCE or getting the permissions
> >>>to
> >>> avoid "segmentation fault", any advice would help a lot.
> >>>>
> >>>> THANKS
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Radiance-general mailing list
> >>> Radiance-general at radiance-online.org
> >>> http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
> >>>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL:
> >><
> http://www.radiance-online.org/pipermail/radiance-general/attachments/20
> >>121204/544f10fe/attachment.html>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Radiance-general mailing list
> >> Radiance-general at radiance-online.org
> >> http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Radiance-general Digest, Vol 106, Issue 5
> >> ************************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Radiance-general mailing list
> >Radiance-general at radiance-online.org
> >http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Radiance-general mailing list
> Radiance-general at radiance-online.org
> http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.radiance-online.org/pipermail/radiance-general/attachments/20121207/05f8c301/attachment-0001.html>